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Incrementalists Forum • View topic - Ethan

Ethan

We all have to die sometime, right?

Re: Ethan

Postby Ethan » Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:50 am

It was *essential,* and I'll keep repeating that. It was the middle class that rejected the culture of "honor" (which I will *gladly* take some credit for) -- and it was the fact that any fool could fire a pistol (at them!) that terrified the aristocracy into listening. I know we've had backlash before from encouraging bad behavior as a way of ensuring its elimination, but in this case it worked beautifully. As I say, I just wish I could claim I'd masterminded *that.*

Did Abdul Tawwab ever compile that statistical model of where the nemones would be without us, before he shaded?
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Re: Ethan

Postby JWaterford » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:45 pm

What is now Proved, was once only Imagin'd.
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Re: Ethan

Postby Vivian » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:48 pm

It gives me joy, John, to note that it was you who brought us back to the topic. O gloriously consistent in character! I salute you.
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Re: Ethan

Postby JWaterford » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:58 pm

The leopard doesn't change his spots, Vivian.
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Re: Ethan

Postby Vivian » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:01 pm

What? No statistical model of the unlikely event? ;)
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Re: Ethan

Postby Alexander » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:21 pm

"Fascism is not in itself a new order of society. It is the future refusing to be born." -- Aneurin Bevan
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Re: Ethan

Postby Ethan » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:21 pm

Q really doesn't see the need to talk about it. But, um, he wouldn't, I guess. And I do. I'm kind of... still deciding how I feel about it. John found what was left of the paper fan of Zhongli Quan, which actually, I think is hilarious, because Qing only mentioned it because he thought nobody could track it down.

So let's say you've got a bit of a rough transition. A few days, nothing too weird, but long enough for a little correspondence. You start seeding the memories that are most essential for you, that have the most emotional resonance, and then you collaborate with the other person in your head, shake hands, and graze together in the garden. Since you're there together, the new Second gets the full impact of them. You spend as much time doing this as you can, again and again, and... according to Zhongli Quan, you up your chances of domination in your new body by quite a bit. Qing says Zhongli Quan didn't invent it; he just borrowed it from a seed a few millennia older.

Like I said, Qing and I figured out quite a while ago that I was probably taking over here. Even with the Paper Fan. But he, um, he kept going. The reason I didn't know things I should is that Qing wasn't bringing me up to speed on *you,* he was bringing me up to speed on *Qing*. Making sure I got as much of his personality, his priorities and biases, as possible.

So if you like the cranky old bastard, I guess I'm going to be more like him than I thought. We've got kind of a detente going at the moment, so we're still doing a time share and we've suspended the lesson plan, but um. Yeah.
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Re: Ethan

Postby Phil » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:35 pm

Have I mentioned lately just how glad I am that Qing decided to opt out of Salt?
"Your job as a good player isn't to win money, it's to make good decisions." -- Mike Caro
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Re: Ethan

Postby Vivian » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:38 pm

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Re: Ethan

Postby Ethan » Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:44 pm

Please. We've all played our share of dirty pool over the years, Cartophilus. Took me less than two decades after my first Spiking to figure that out. We're all on the same team, but how many of us trust one another? If you were laying down and giving it up tomorrow, who would you trust to pick up the reins of your pet projects, your multigenerational meddles? Oskar? Ramon? Viv? Anyone else? An untested Second?

I'll be shaded in two months, but I have a thirteen century legacy. A sacred trust. And the kid will handle it better for my titaning than he ever would have without it, because he understands what it means. How many of the rest of you can have that kind of confidence as you go into the next life?

-Q
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Re: Ethan

Postby Phil » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:54 pm

I have no idea how I would react if I were in your position, Q. I don't have to decide, because A) I'm not in your position, and B) The point is not to make moral judgments.

The point is what you're doing to Ethan. Having him spend half the day grazing with no warning. Keeping him ignorant of basic techniques for controlling dreams. Leaving him essentially alone in a confused whirl of history, contemporary events, and memories that aren't his own without a way to navigate among them.

Would I do the same thing in your shoes? It could very well be that I might--or worse; you all know some of the things I did in the 16th and 17th Centuries. But if I did that, people would smack me up 'side the head and say, "Cut it the fuck out before you ruin that Second."

So: Cut it the fuck out before you ruin that Second.
"Your job as a good player isn't to win money, it's to make good decisions." -- Mike Caro
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Re: Ethan

Postby Matsu » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:57 pm

Phil, you aren't wrong, but you're drastically overstating. Ethan is far more resilient than you give him credit for. And we know less about the learning process of going from recruit to Second than we think we do: after all, we've only had 30,000 years of this. We're bound to learn more. Qing is giving us good information, and I think doing it without long-term damage to Ethan.

So back off--at least a little.
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Re: Ethan

Postby Ethan » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:08 pm

Qing doesn't have much choice in the matter at this point. He still gets his timeshare, but I'm driving when it's my turn. He can seed what he wants, but I'm setting up my own grazing menu (and cutting it down to about an hour a day; that should be okay, right?). I'll be consulting with John (and all of you, probably) to see where I'm still behind.

You won't lose what Qing had to offer. But it's definitely getting repackaged with a new attitude. Or, okay, a mostly new attitude, because I definitely have a few deeply-rooted opinions I didn't have when he started grazing with me.

If anyone's got any meddlework that would let me travel for a little while, I think I need to get out of my house and my head. Even my apartment is all feng shui-ed to a Q state of mine.

Thanks for helping me sort this, guys.

-Ethan

Thanks, Matsu. Phil, I'll admit to one mistake in this. I should have told the kid what I was doing as soon as we knew I was shading. -Q
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Re: Ethan

Postby Phil » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:10 pm

All right. You asked me how much we trust one another. I don't know. I do know I trust Matt. If he says to back off, I will. A bit. For a while.
"Your job as a good player isn't to win money, it's to make good decisions." -- Mike Caro
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Re: Ethan

Postby Ramon » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:12 pm

Ethan and Quang

FWIW, a recent shade and I enjoyed cohabitation the remainder of his life after we were spiked. Some of my postmortum notes -if you'll excuse the expression- are at 85/44/2.

The high point is that, probably due to some mental instability Phil wasn't able to detect, this particular second neither expressed dominance nor receded. With two exceptions there was no struggle whatever in this regard. I continue to believe, as I note in the aforementioned resource, that the initial round of strife was caused by my expectation of a fight for dominance and might have been avoided had I considered cohabitation viable.

The second period was directly due to heated a disagreement. The group had identified a preference to push a particular project we (meaning I) had elected to abandon as a risk to public health. It was my intent to accept the groups decision; however, while I was unsuccessful in providing direction in this regard I was also not subsumed. That latter struggle, unfortunately upset my somewhat shaky foothold in nemone society ultimately costing me completion of a key project.

My point here is three fold: first, you will lose much flexibility among the nemones if people think you have lost your grip. Second, the more protracted the struggle between Stub and Second the more likely you are actually to lose your grip. Moreover, I do not take it as proven such struggle is necessary.
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Re: Ethan

Postby JWaterford » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:28 pm

I think there's a second lesson here for titans--certainly for me as a titan. If a newly Spiked Second picks up the mechanical aspects of his new life with unusual speed, that doesn't mean one's work as a titan can be put on the back burner.

I'm a bit too close to this to be fair to Qing on the ethical and emotional levels, so I won't comment on that side of it. On an intellectual level, I think it's highly interesting and instructive.

I suppose that's a pretty fair summation of our relationship for these last three hundred years, come to think of it.
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Re: Ethan

Postby Ethan » Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:39 pm

John, I didn't say it yesterday because yesterday it wasn't true, but... no hard feelings. You wanted to do right by the kid; can't argue that. And congratulations on a sweet piece of grazing. I would have lied about the fan if I thought you could find it so quickly.

And Ramon... interesting. Thanks. -Q
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